Caesar Millan: agree with him? don't? not sure?
  • Pet+Sitter+BiblePet Sitter Bible
    Caesar Millan's training methods are controversial to many who feel he promotes dominance over dogs. What do you think?
  • Erika_HErika_H
    I find his maxim: "Be the pack leader" extremely vague and open to wide interpretation. What does this mean? Some people are very intense like him and can pull this off, others cannot. I like going by the Humane Society's recommendations for various behavioral problems. It's methodical and humane. Caesar Milan has done alpha rollovers on his show and if you watch regularly, he gets bit about every 6th show.
  • Pet+Sitter+BiblePet Sitter Bible
    Hi Erika, great points! Do you ever watch Victoria Stillwell on "It's me or the dog" on Animal Planet? She's very good and seems to follow the methods you and I respond to. Thanks.
  • Erika_HErika_H
    She's my favorite!
  • Pet+Sitter+BiblePet Sitter Bible
    Nice, have you or anyone else watched "Pitbulls and Parolees"? I caught an episode and it was pretty heavy but a what a great program they have created for animals and people (:
  • Erika_HErika_H
    I haven't watched that show. I usually read books or watch videos on dog training. I recently read the book "Don't Shoot the Dog!" by Karen Pryor and I found it to be pretty basic; and I was deeply disturbed by one section of the book where writes about a problem cat she had. This cat would pee on the stove top burners and when she'd turn on the heat, of course the stench was unbelievable. She bought those burner covers, but the cat would pee on those too. She could never catch it in the act, so she couldn't train it. She was so incensed that the cat would do this to her and she could not remedy it she took her cat to the SPCA and had it put down. I was so shocked when I read this, she wrote it with no feeling as if she just took out the trash, I had to read it several times, thinking I misinterpreted it. In prior chapters she indicated that our society is very punitive and here she did the ultimate in punishment: execution! After reading this I thought she should have named her book, "Don't Shoot the Dog, but Kill the Cat!"

    Jean Donaldson's book, The Culture Clash has been the best dog training book I've read so far. She's also very humble and gives credit to people who have come up with ideas she's implemented and wrote about.
  • Pet+Sitter+BiblePet Sitter Bible
    What??? I can't believe that and I'm totally with you with immediately trashing it. My belief is when I take in an animal it's with me for life. The Culture Clash sounds great and I'll definitely check it out. Thanks for the great points, I have a feeling this discussion will receive interest from other users on the site, thanks.
  • kitzekitze
    I've lived in a few places with people who owned dogs. Almost every time I would bond with the dog; give him/her plenty of affection, but also give it boundaries. When we went for a walk, the dog was next to me, and I would let him stop when I felt it was a good place to stop, not whenever he wanted. I trained one dog to walk on leash and that dog had a lot more respect for me after that (listened more, wanted to be around me more). My point is that these dogs started treating me like the owner- wanting to be around me more than the owner, who let the dog do whatever he wanted- and that was a bit of a problem. I think this is largely what Cesar is trying to get across: a dog with boundaries is happier than a dog without boundaries. In my experience, this is true.
  • Pet+Sitter+BiblePet Sitter Bible
    I think your point is well written and I agree, and I think most everyone would but the area of disagreement seems to be how to achieve and implement those boundaries...
  • smilekirasmilekira
    I like Cesar Milan: first of all its a show and he tells us not to try it at home. Second: his methods work. He definitely has a talent and saved dogs that would be put to sleep otherwise. I have a great respect for him. He is a bit crazy in his own way (Ive heard his ex wife talking about him walking on all four and barking at dogs in their home). But we cant argue that dogs are animals and they communicate with each other through touch/bite. Be a pack leader means to feel confident inside and have this calm strong energy radiating from you. It actually helped me to be a calmer more confident person in general: I was walking dogs all day and while doing so was practicing to be assertive and calm and it became my second nature sort off.

    I dont like Victoria: she is very emotional, she makes faces like she is disgusted and talks down to the owners of the dogs. I think she is a negative person and thus I dont like the show. I saw this video on youtube when she started to argue and scream at a judge on some dog show when the judge mentioned Cesar Milan. So unprofessional and rude.

    We still can learn more from other trainers than the shows and thank you previous posts about some good books suggestions 
  • ColleenSColleenS
    Cesar Milan agitates a lot of people because his methods are far heavier handed than they need to be and the methods are actually detrimental.  A dog that is urinating is in full fledged fear and a dog that is pushed to bite is not rehabilitating. This is not a healthy way to teach a dog. Punishment can work, no one argues this, but it's not necessary. Ask yourself would you rather learn what to do by making guessing and doing what you normally do and being shocked or choked at each guess? This is the style of Cesar Milan.  Instead, we should manage or dog from practicing the undesired behavior while we SHOW THEM WHAT WE WANT THEM TO DO. For example, tell the dog to sit and look at you, versus bark and lunge at the doorman.  By not telling the dog what you are looking for and just punishing him when he acts out - you are not teaching him a better or more appropriate behavior.  He will NEVER guess that you'd like him to sit and be quiet. Never. 

     I always laugh that the disclaimer say, don't do this at home.  It's dangerous for both dog and human and It's ridiculous to think it needs to be this way. Training with force promotes aggression as proven in studies. So while some claim that Cesar has helped dogs, he has actually promoted aggression in them (and anyone that tries to replicate this). This means more dog biting and more dogs landing in shelters as a result. See study below.  The methods Cesar uses work for a nano second on tv b/c the dog is in a state of learned helplessness. It's every move is punished with "shh" a heal kick, a choke. It learns for that moment, in that persons hands not to move, not to do a thing in order to avoid a punishment. This does NOT carry over the the owner when the leash is handed back. It is also not a way to sustain a training program or to foster any relationship of trust between a dog and owner.  You cannot "fix" a problem in a session. It should also be noted that these cases are NOT very serious in many cases. Leash aggression is very common in dogs, resource guarding is as well. These are cases we see daily and there is no need for this type of handling. Your job as an advocate for the dog and the owner is the help them learn to live together. Creating this constant idea that your dog is battling with you for Alpha in your house is ridiculous. It has been debunked by scientists again and again.  It's unfair to label dogs as this calculated or manipulative. They simply are not working on that premise. 

    Modern animal researchers and veterinarians are saddened to see what national geographic has put on air. It has taken animal science and handling methods back 40 years. The theory Cesar operates on has long been debunked.  


    This talks about the use of punishment and it's fall out

    You may find many studies regarding force used in training through this site. 
  • Pet+Sitter+BiblePet Sitter Bible
    Thanks @ColleenS it's great to have your knowledge and experience on this subject.

    re.: Ask yourself would you rather learn what to do by making guessing and
    doing what you normally do and being shocked or choked at each guess?

    This is where I started to look at Millan differently myself and actually felt sick watching an episode.

    re.: The methods Cesar uses work for a nano second on tv b/c the dog is in a state of learned helplessness.

    A sad truth. We've had dogs in our company sent to trainers who applied these methods (broke their will in a sense) and they came back much more difficult and much more aggressive.

    re.: Creating this constant idea that your dog is battling with you for Alpha
    in your house is ridiculous. It has been debunked by scientists again
    and again.

    I used to be guilty of this premise myself and I even think I need to go back and reword a section in my book where I discuss pack leader.

    Thanks for all the resources Colleen.

  • smilekirasmilekira
    @CollenS. If Cesar only promotes more aggression and his technique works for the duration of a show only, why at the end of the show the happy dog owners follow up after a few weeks that they have much better relations with their dogs?
     And how can you explain the balanced pack that Cesar has in his rehabilitation center?

    One of your articles say that its ok to use punishment if the other approach fails and that a person needs significant skills. It actually says punishment works when applied every time behavior occurs and when the trainer can be consistent with the reward as well.  Cesar uses heal kick, arm touch and rolls together with rewards. And the first article doesn't say anything against roll (it says that wolfs dont roll each other) and doesn't say anything against the arm touch that feels like a bite (says everybody can try with their dog and see the outcome)


     I might be wrong about Cesar Milan, but if you know for sure that with his methods more dogs end up in shelters and dead, please provide the evidence for that.

    Josh in his book mentions that we need to correct the dog, if we are not
    happy with the dog's behavior - we should let the dog know. Josh: what
    are the best way to let the dog know when you are not happy with it's
    behavior when you are a professional dog walker? If the dog growls at you when you come to pick it up, do you
    assign a trainer right away or you try to do something about it
    yourself, like using treats etc?



  • Pet+Sitter+BiblePet Sitter Bible
    Hi @smilekira

    Well I do have to say some of my beliefs have changed since I wrote the book and I'll update those areas in my revised edition. I do feel like we should work with our dogs to walk well on the leash and I do like to use voice, positive reinforcement and the proper equipment to achieve this. I wrote an article you commented on actually about knowing if we're a dog walker/pet sitter or a dog trainer and I have grown to feel there needs to be a keen distinction. I find way too many walkers and sitters run around trying to solve problems they aren't qualified too and especially when it comes to aggression. With an aggressive dog we'll take the same precautions you've mentioned, use a muzzle, treats, verbal commands etc. but we always get a trainer involved. We have an in house trainer of our own but also use outside trusted trainers too. I've experienced lawsuits for this very subject and on top of threatening your business they could also threaten the dog's life ):

    Keep in mind with Millan too, he does much stronger tactics off camera is what I've repeatedly been told, so what you see on camera is actually cake compared.
  • ColleenSColleenS
    Hi there! Sorry, I was out tail end of the week.  : ) 
    You may view that entire site to see numerous studies and positions on force in training and the fall out. No one (as I stated) ever argues that punishment doesn't work at times. You can use methods that are far more humane and work to build trust, confidence and a bond between you and your dog. So why employ these forceful methods? Placing boundaries on a relationship does not mean you need to be aggressive or physical w/ your dog. All species can be trained positively. Dolphins, whales are a perfect example. They are trained w/ fish as rewards. They fly, leap, twist and spin all for the love of fish. You can't physically man handle these animals and yet, they still learn. 

    In terms of promoting more aggression the article is on the site. Also, when you promote a dog to explode (as Cesar's methods do) - you are giving the dog another opportunity to act aggressively (to point of biting in many cases). Whether is a dog is practicing a sit or practicing bite...like your mother always says, "practice makes perfect.". Do you want a perfect sitter or biter?  Any behavior that is practice becomes more engrained. Going to war with your dog elicits aggression.  A good trainer works to ensure a dog learnes new behavior..limiting his abiltiy to practice old behavior.   We want animals that learn how to deal with their fear, anxiety and frustration.  Have you ever heard Cesar call any animal anything other than "dominant?"  Do you honestly believe that dogs in incapable of being fearful, nervous or anxious?   
    Here is a very sad example. Shadow a leash reactive Husky, who is nervous/reactive on leash. We know he is fearful as you will see when OFF leash he is great. The leash creates a barrier and takes away his ability to flee - which can cause fear/aggression in many dogs.  When Shadow is nervous, Cesar kicks his heal - sending an already nervous dog into a full state of arousal.  Then, Cesar goes on to hang/choke Shadow for many minutes (the dog loses oxygen at 2:56). As Shadow looses oxygen (you'll see his tongue is blue) he falls to the ground and then fully releases his body (urinating all over the cement - who sees his legs kick up and he turns his head as he urinates). How do you think an already nervous dog feels when he sees a dog, alerts and then is strangled?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qh9YOyM2TAk
    Here you see a vet/behaviorist working with a leash reactive pitbull. She works to point of the dogs meeting and engaging on leash. Over time the treat will fade as the dog has learned it's safe to be around other dogs on leash.  Where did Cesar get with his method?  No where. He choked a dog to collapse and urinate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUCl6ndLN7Q 
    Think of it this way - If you were afraid of spiders and I first lightly kicked you then strangled you at each siting - would you feel better or worse? 
    In terms of happy follow up. You are legally obligated and sign a 50+ page contract to never speak out against the TV show, production, and training techniques of Cesar Millan when you agree to be on the show. There are a few pending lawsuits - you may google them.In 10 years of working with "red zone" dogs - both in and out of shelters - i have never once used any of these methods and can happily report my clients have a relationship based on trust and confidence not on fear and physical dominance. 
    In terms of a happy pack at Cesar's. This is where dogs are NOT given credit. Dogs will almost ALWAYS work it out when living together. There may be scuffles here and there, but their ability to communicate is amazing. Without leashes and barriers and plenty of space - it's very rare that dogs fight. I have lived with a rotating group of doggies ranging from 4-38 and in ten years - have had one puncture. I don;t credit myself.  I credit the dogs. 

    I am not looking for an argument. I LOVE dogs. I want what is best for them.  If Cesar's way was best, you can believe I would partake.  It's just not and it's been proven time and agin by the bites he sustains and the science that debunks it.   In a decade of seeing dogs, i have never once been bitten. It's not because i don;t work with explosive dogs - it's because i teach them a new way of dealing with their anxiety. I teach their owners who have suffered bites to do the same. It only makes good sense to keep dogs from biting - not enraging them to a point of doing so.  


  • deafdogwalkerdeafdogwalker
    Before becoming a dog walker I worked at an animal shelter as a kennel attendant. We had a pit bull program where volunteers would come in and work with a CPDT who specialized in bully breeds. After I clocked out for the day, I would come back a few hours later for the training session and pick one of my favorite dogs from a cage and go learn how to train shelter dogs. In short, I learned how to teach all of the basic commands both through clicker training and without the use of a clicker. Each CPDT we had was different, and each had a different method to their own madness. None of the trainers we worked with ever used Caesers methods nor encouraged them. After working for sometimes 14 hours a day in the shelter, the last thing I wanted to do was come home and watch animal planet! 

    Personally, my dog was one of those shelter dogs. My first year of owning him was an experience to say the least. He is my first dog ever (I grew up with cats) and after 8 months of really hard work I got him to pass the AKC Canine Good Citizen. When I first got him he pulled on a leash, did not like other dogs, had raging separation anxiety, and the only thing he had going for him was that he liked meeting strangers and being petted by people. It was a lot of work, and he was already a few years old when I pulled him from that cage in the overcrowded kennel. 

    So many people tell me how great Caeser is, but knowing that there are a lot of behind the scenes work that we don't get to see on the screen is part of why I don't quite buy it. Sure, he's done some good work and saved a lot of lives. I just think that when it comes to trainers and methods that not one particular method is going to work for every dog nor their owner. If owners actually did the things we try to do on a daily basis to encourage good behavior, the dogs would start responding to their owners better too!
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